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JAMES SPENCE (1778-1857)

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gnstill
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JAMES SPENCE (1778-1857)

Post by gnstill » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:45 pm

New Family Page: JAMES SPENCE (1778-1857)

Please post comments and queries about this James SPENCE and his family here.

Wayne Jones
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Re: JAMES SPENCE (1778-1857)

Post by Wayne Jones » Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:02 pm

According to the Hudson Bay records in 1815/1816, James is described as being 5ft. 5 ½ inches tall and fair.

The Orkney seamen were liable to press gangs. The wars of 1778-1783 and 1793-1815 had stripped the Orkneys of seamen at such a rate that at one point the HBC was permitted to recruit only locals shorter than five-feet-four - the height restriction of the Royal Navy. The Company's agent in the Orkneys could meet his recruitment quota only by taking on boys twelve to fourteen years old.

The combination of youthfulness and short stature prompted the Cree wife of a different James Spence, a HBCo officer at York Factory, to comment as she watched the lilliputians leave a supply ship : "James, have you not always told me that the people in your country are as numerous as the leaves on the trees? How can you speak such falsehood? Do we not all see plainly that the very last of them is come; if there were any more would these dwarfs have come here?"

James entered the service of the Hudson Bay Co. on July 5th, 1797 and sailed from Stromness in the Orkneys to York Factory on a ship called the King George. An Outfit year ran from 1 June to 31 May. James worked for the HBCo as a tailor at York Island from 1797 to 1810 and then signed on again as a tailor in Saskatchewan from 1811 till 1818. A reference in 1818 says that he was "gone to the Colony."

We do not have a birth or baptismal record for James’ date of birth. However, on his inscription papers his age is given as 19 in July 1797 and, as listed in subsequent Company records, this is consistent with 1778 as his year of birth. HBCo records say that he came from the Orphir parish in the Orkney Islands of Scotland.

On 17 June 1822, the following children of our James Spence and an Indian woman were baptized: Robert, Betsy, Charlotte and Ellen. On the same day James Spence married Jane Morwick and the following children of James and Jane Spence were baptized: Nancy, William, Isabella, James and John. Since Jane was the widow of Oman Norquay, who had died in 1820, Oman was probably the father of the five children rather than James. However, another source holds that Nancy was James daughter by his first wife. James and Jane then had children of their own, David in 1824, Joseph, baptized in 1826 and a daughter, Catherine, baptized in 1829.

In the Red River Settlement Census of 1827 he is the James listed as #16 on Lot 247. It says that he is 50 yrs old and is married. He has 3 sons under 16 yrs. and 3 daughters under 16 yrs. His oldest daughter is over sixteen. At that time he owned a house and stable and 7 acres of land. His livestock included a horse, a mare, 4 cows, 1 ox, 2 calves, and a pig. He also owned a cart, a plow, a harrow, and a canoe.

James had a brother Robert Spence. There is a letter dated April 22, 1835, from the Manitoba Archives "Copies of Miscellaneous Documents, Red River" written on James’ behalf by George Simpson, the director of the Hudson Bay Company. The letter asks the Hudson Bay agent in Kirkwall, Orkney to see if James has an inheritance from his brother, Robert, who was a wealthy merchant in Kirkwall and who had died in 1834. Robert’s death record indicates that he was 62 at that time giving Robert a birth year of 1772. According to the Orkney Islands birth registry, there was a Robert Spence born at Orphir that year and his parents were James Spence and Marjory Lesk. These would then be James, parents also.

James is the James Spence who was buried at St. John's on 30 November 1857, aged 78. His family members also appear in St. John's registries.

James family is made up of four different parts.1) According to his daughter, Eleanor’s scrip, his first wife was a Stoney or Assiniboine woman named Mary. They had several children and she died before 1822. 2) James second wife, Jane Morwick, brought with her several children from her first marriage to Oman Norquay, 3) James and Jane had several children together. 4) James and Jane also raised John Norquay, Jane’s grandson after the death of his parents. He went on to become Manitoba’s first Metis Premier.

In 1823 Barbara Spence's daughter, Jane, died of the croup. The death record from St. John's says that there were four children from "one family" that died who died in the month of May that year. They are listed as James Spence on May 10, about 7 years old; Nancy Spence on May 25, about 2 years old; William Spence on May 27, about 8 years old; and Jane Wishart on May 28, about 2 years old.

The note in the margin reads, "These children died of the croup in one family" This is James' (b. 1778) "family" and these children are made up of a daughter by his first wife, two adopted children of his second wife's first marriage and his grand daughter.

This record establishes Barbara as this James Spence (b. 1778)'s daughter since her baptismal record simply indicates that she is the daughter of James Spence and an Indian woman.

gnstill
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Re: JAMES SPENCE (1778-1857)

Post by gnstill » Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:14 pm

Thanks very much for the connections Wayne. I just received all the files you referred to from David Wishart. As I told him - Obviously it is going to take considerable time for me to digest all of this and to do updates on my related Family Pages (I always work with one Family Page at a time). I am amazed at the responses I am getting on my website forums and it is keeping me very busy these days. Nevertheless it is a labor of love and will keep me busy in my declining years. I just hope my old brain can keep functioning for a few more years.

Wayne Jones
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Re: JAMES SPENCE (1778-1857)

Post by Wayne Jones » Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:54 pm

James was a faithful family man.

According to oral tradition James also raised two of Barbara's children when her family moved to the US.

He also raised his second wife's grandson by her first marriage who became a rather famous individual.

John Norquay was born 8 May 1841 near St Andrews (Man.), the fifth of six children of John Norquay and Isabella Truthwaite. His mother died in 1843 when he was only two and his father died in 1849. John was then raised by his paternal grandmother, Mrs. James Spence, and by his teachers at the Anglican St John's Collegiate School in Red River. An able student, he soon became the protégé of David ANDERSON, bishop of Rupert's Land, who provided him with odd jobs and, in 1854, with a scholarship which allowed him to remain at school.He married in June 1862 Elizaheth Setter at Parkdale (Man.), and they had three daughters and five sons. He died 5 July 1889 in Winnipeg, Man.

John was a politician and the Premier of Manitoba from 1878 to 1887. One of Red River's most distinguished sons, Norquay successfully moved from the fur trade and the river lot into modern business and politics after Manitoba entered Confederation. His great-grand-mother was a native woman and his paternal ancestors were jacks-of-all-trades at fur-company posts. He was one of the best students in Red River schools and was successively a teacher, farmer and fur trader between 1857 and 1870, when he was elected to Manitoba's first legislature.

He rose quickly to prominence in the House, was a Cabinet minister (1871-74, 1875-78), and became premier upon the retirement of R.A. Davis on the basis of his strong following among "old" (pre-1870) settlers and French-speaking Manitobans.

The Norquay government successfully extended Manitoba's boundaries and secured larger federal subsidies, but it eventually foundered upon Canada's railway policy. Caught between PM John A. MACDONALD'S guarantee of a CPR freight monopoly and Manitoban demands for rail competition, Norquay chose to fight Ottawa in 1887 by building a railway to the US. Macdonald intervened and, by an apparent double cross precipitated a financial scandal and the collapse of the Norquay ministry. Though he briefly led a small opposition to the new GREENWAY government, Norquay's sudden death in 1889 prevented him from restoring his reputation in Canadian public life.

Norquay was widely liked in Manitoba. His name has been kept alive not only because he was the province's only premier of mixed European and native ancestry but because of his amiable disposition and considerable talents

gnstill
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Re: JAMES SPENCE (1778-1857)

Post by gnstill » Tue Feb 10, 2015 5:53 pm

Thanks again Wayne. I did already had much of that information already in the narrative. Some of it belongs in other Family Pages. However the information regarding James’ parents is a revelation. I have updated the narrative accordingly and made a number of corrections and changes.
I have yet to reviews David Wishart’s information.

gnstill
Site Admin
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Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:12 pm

Re: JAMES SPENCE (1778-1857)

Post by gnstill » Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:12 am

I got all your Email attachments ok Wayne – Thanks yet again.

In appreciation I’ve created a Page for another of your ancestors at this link:
JEREMIAH COOK (1804-1872)

Look forward to your comments on that one. Any suitable pictures I could add?

HBCwife
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Re: JAMES SPENCE (1778-1857)

Post by HBCwife » Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:43 pm

This is confusing. On Omar Norquay's page, sons William and James Norquay died young and on the James Spence page they are being baptized at their mother's second marriage.

Omar Norquay page:
In 1820 Oman NORQUAY died, leaving Widow Jane with three surviving young children. These (with approximate ages) would have been Isabella (age 12), John (11) and Henry (10). Her two youngest children, James (and William died very young, probably as a result of the whooping cough or measles outbreak previously mentioned.

James Spence page:
On June 17, 1822, James SPENCE (in his mid-40’s) re-married at Fort Garry to Widow Jane (nee MORWICK) NORQUAY.
Jane’s children by Oman NORQUAY were also baptized (Nancy, William, Isabella, James, and John NORQUAY).

gnstill
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Re: JAMES SPENCE (1778-1857)

Post by gnstill » Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:57 pm

James and William died young, but not that young – James died age 10 and William age 8, both in 1823, about a year after they were baptized.

ymorrissette
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Re: JAMES SPENCE (1778-1857)

Post by ymorrissette » Sat May 07, 2016 9:00 am

Good morning. I wanted to have info on James Spence II, Metis born 1782 died 1856 in St. Andrew, Manitoba, the son of James Andrew Spence 1753-1795 and Margaret Nistichio Batt 1757-1829. There were two James Spences, one, the before mentioned; and the 2nd James Spence I, born 1779 in Scotland, son of James Spence and Marjory Lesk. Both men married women named Mary. The 2nd James Spence 1779-1857(died in St.John, Manitoba) also married Jane Morwick 1788-1874. Thank you

ymorrissette
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Re: JAMES SPENCE (1778-1857)

Post by ymorrissette » Sat May 07, 2016 9:49 am

Good morning again. I found what I was looking for on my two James Spences. I was confused, as the HBC records said that the James Spence, son of James Andrew Spence and Margaret Nistichio Batt, did not marry. He did marry and he did have children. The HBC records are incorrect. James Spence (tailor) was from the Orkneys. The other James Spence, was Meits born to James Andrew Spence and Margaret Nistichio Batt. It got confusing as both lived contemperaneously, both were born and died withing years of each other, and both married women named Mary. One was born in the Orneys, one was born in York Factory. One died in St. Johns, the other in St. Andrews. :) One was a tailor, the other was not.

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