Agnes Kennedy and Rachel Thomas re James/Jim Shand post

[Kennedy/Thomas]

Yes the part of Winnie makes sense. My grandmother Isabelle/Bella Harder, maiden Kennedy and nee Simard/Seymour always told the story of Winnie having Yvonne and that was partially why the family moved to Winnipeg. It makes sense to be with family considering that many of them were being displaced and would have wanted to be near other family members. My grandmother was born in 1921 so her grandparents from what I have read in the other post on James Shand were already dead as of 1906 or close to for unknown reasons. Her parents died when she was young too but not too young as she avoided residential school and moved to the city. Her sisters and brothers some of them at least ended up being raised in those schools. Her parents were Charles Simard and Margaret Kennedy. I have traced Margaret to her mother Juliet Thomas and Juliet Thomas to [William and Ann Thomas(Swampy Cree) based on census data and commutation/scrip papers]. My grandmother used to visit with the Mayo's in the North End of Winnipeg I believe and their was apparently a Joe and another female who they would see. This would be around the 1960-70's. Agnes and Margaret Kennedy were sisters and their mother was Juliet Thomas-the wife of a John George Kennedy. I need information on John George re his parents etc. He was born in 1870 from what information I have. He is on Juliet's scrip listed as a husband, labourer and half-breed but that's all it says. Juliet was grown up and out of the house by the time Agnes went to go live with Rachel(Aunt) in the Thomas household belonging to William and Mary Ann, the grandparents of Agnes. I would also like to know what happened to John George and Juliet why they had to give Agnes up for adoption.

[gnstill]

No one seems to know what became of Juliet & John George KENNEDY, last recorded in 1906.

Regarding John George’s parents – I cannot find anything for certain on that, but I suspect he may have been a child of Alexander KENNEDY (1852-1935) who may have been married to Margaret DENNET. That Alex KENNEDY was a Treaty Indian living on Lot 19 in the St Peters Reserve until 1888, at which time he gave up his Treaty status and moved to Peace River Country. 1907 was the year of the Surrender of the Reserve to the Crown. In 1909-1910 Alex wrote (from Peace River) letters to DIA in attempts to gain title to his lot in St Peters. He was not successful due to the fact that he was a Treaty Indian when he lived on the lot.

[Kennedy/Thomas]

Thanks for that. I had a theory that was similar because there is a a recorded interview where the interviewee mentions the name Kennedy, John George, Charles and Maggie. I think the interviewee knew of John George Kennedy and the the other side of my family tree because in theory both sides of my family knew each other before the marriage of John George's daughter Margaret to Charles Simard. The interviewee mentions a Charles and company and thinks that Charles and the wife of Charles named Maggie are Kennedy's when in fact they might have been Simard's by then because Margaret who went by Maggie in addition to Charles who was a Simard were my grandma's parents. The interviewee mentions an old Alec as well-maybe it's Alex Kennedy. The interview is available at the following:

DOCUMENT NAME/INFORMANT: JOE COCHRANE
INFORMANT'S ADDRESS: FISHER RIVER
INTERVIEW LOCATION:
TRIBE/NATION:
LANGUAGE: ENGLISH
DATE OF INTERVIEW:
INTERVIEWER: MARGARET STOBIE
INTERPRETER:
TRANSCRIBER: JOANNE GREENWOOD
SOURCE: MARGARET STOBIE TAPE
COLLECTION
ARCHIVES AND SPECIAL
COLLECTIONS
ELIZABETH DAFOE LIBRARY
UNIVERSITY OF MANITOBA
WINNIPEG, MANITOBA
R3T 2N2
TAPE NUMBER: IH-MS.026b/.023a
DISK: TRANSCRIPT DISC 42
PAGES: 9

There is a LETTER-TO-FOSTER-CHALMERS on the www.lambair.com website mentioning a John George Kennedy who told Indian stories. I have seen John George mentioned in other stories where he is said to be Indian by way of his spiritual practices of using Indian medicines and although he had guns he was very superstitious. This could all be about the John George in question. I have also noticed that he is referred to as a teacher and story teller/medicine keeper.

[Kennedy/Thomas]

Sorry in my last post I put the wrong article on John George Kennedy. I got the website right but not it was not an interview with Joe Cochrane although he is probably related. Here is the article that discusses John George.

Alfred Thomas interview
Authors: Thomas, Alfred
Mulligan, Dave
Stobie, Margaret
Peer Reviewed: no
University Affiliation: Other
Keywords: Disease and illness -- Smallpox
Religion and Spirituality -- Sacred places
Religion and Spirituality -- Tobacco
Transportation -- Canoe
Values -- Honesty
Work -- For wages
Grand Marais, Manitoba
Issue Date: Jun-1965
Publisher: Canadian Plains Research Centre
Abstract: Discussion of the early settlers in the Grand Marais area.
Description: 18 p. transcript of an interview with Alfred Thomas conducted by Dave Mulligan and Margaret Stobie in June, 1965. Tape number IH-MS.016A,.016B, transcript disc 44.
URI: http://hdl.handle.net/10294/1862
Appears in Collections: Indian history film project

[Kennedy/Thomas]

I am currently looking deeper into the identity of John George Kennedy and his ancestors. This has become the focus now for me. I think in general he lived a lifestyle on the fringes of white mainstream society. His father Alex was a wanderer and John George followed suit. Alex wrote a land claim letter from Peace River Alberta and JG was associated with Red Earth Saskatchewan. Alex Jr., JG's brother was in the army-joined 1916 in Selkirk. JG fought with the militia against Louis Riel in 1885. John George could have easily had two wives; namely Juliet Thomas in Manitoba and Sarah Whitford in Saskatchewan based on scrip records. I still wonder what happened to Juliet Thomas and all her daughters who may have married and their names forever changed making it hard to track them after St.Peters was removed/relocated. John George on the other hand had mostly brothers. There are too many Margarets in his family too; namely his mother Margaret Dennet, sister Margaret and his daughter Maggie. The Kennedy's(Indian) were displaced from the St. Peters Reserve and Band I would argue. They were capable of operating more closely to mainstream and British influenced society because they were educated to a certain extent.

It is ever so slightly possible that Alexander Sr's parents were Indians who knew Mary Bear/Agathes Bear's family so they got to hold the Kennedy surname by permission or baptism because one of the Kennedy girls married an Isbister based on scrip records. Isbister is name associated with a marriage into the Captain Kennedy family.

[gnstill]

Careful, we're talking two different John Georges here.

The John George KENNEDY who married Sarah WHITFORD was born on Jun 12, 1855 albeit in St Peters, but they moved to Prince Albert (Colleston) by 1881 and lived the rest of their lives there.

The John George KENNEDY who married Juliet THOMAS was born about 15 years later, Sep 4, 1870.

[Kennedy/Thomas]

I also think it's quite possible that Agnes Mayo nee Kennedy was the daughter of John George Kennedy's sister Margaret who may have went by Marry in the 1906 census for Saskatchewan. The dob's are close enough considering that there have been errors within a few years for other Kennedy's like on Alex Jr.'s attestation record in 1916 etc. I think John George got his age wrong on more than 1 occasion too or the census taker got it wrong for some reason. Either way if Agnes needed family to stay with in Manitoba then she could have stayed with the Thomas's while her grandfather Alex Sr. was in Peace River Alberta This is theory but there is significant proof that the Kennedy's were not monogamous. They certainly didn't stay around long enough for my generation to ever know them.

On another note 'Alen' Kennedy who I would say was really Alex Kennedy Sr. the one who left his lot 19 behind in St. Peters trusting that nothing would happen to it met another woman in Peace River area. He wrote that letter from Peace River in 1910ish making claim to the lot that another Indian named Flett was occupying because Alex's family members(uncle Adam and Alex's parents) who were on it died. It seems as if Alex Sr. had an illegitimate child that the mother named Jules Kennedy. The scrip for Jules's mother is at http://metisnationdatabase.ualberta.ca. In the letter he stated that he knew Chief Peguis and took the same deal as Peguis. Only difference is I guess is that Alex Kennedy never got a new reserve named Peguis. Alex and his son John George probably thought they were important people and wouldn't be thrown off the land by way of the new surveys and past service for the militia(John George). In a letter regarding lot 4 on the St. Peters Reserve written by a man named JG he states that his father bought it from chief Peguis and later willed it to JG(selkirk law firm) and his sister squandered what she got away so he needs the land for financial reasons. I don't know if the JG in this letter is the same JG born in 1855 or the one born in 1870-both from St. Peters but they were Indian from the sounds of it.

[gnstill]

Agnes Matilda KENNEDY is clearly identified in Manitoba Vital Stats as born Dec 6, 1894. Mother's maiden name: Juliet THOMAS
Also in Vital Stats: Agnes Matilda KENNDY married May 30, 1917 in Selkirk to Wallace MAYO

[Kennedy/Thomas]

When I said that John George had a sister in the last post on this topic I meant that John George himself might have been son to John George born in 1855 whether legal or illegitimately with his uncle or similar named Alex Kennedy Sr. taking over as 'head'(not in a tipi) in 1888 just before Maggie the midwife was born. Since I don't know of Alex Sr.'s parents I assume that they were Indian and this is an example of why census alone is faulty in determining Indian ancestry. My grandma wasn't a hundred percent sure about some of the family as she said that cousins married cousins and in Indian culture at least back then it was conceivable to get informally adopted or to take over the role of head in a household or rather tipi if you will. My grandma told us stories about all-meaning lots here of her family-getting baptized and having name changes; Mary, Elizabeth and Betsy being a few of the top names thanks in part to the church's fascination with "The virgin Marry". John George could have been taught by other family members in his social network of Indians. His sister Margaret/Mary and his daughter Margaret/Mary make for one too many Mary's to differentiate from not including the fact that churches in every province were rushing to convert Indians by way of baptism to name one technique. Grandma said the family would take the wagon after heating up a stone on the fire to keep warm and hit the trail for long trips in the wagon. She probably made the trip to Saskatchewan a few times in her life to visit family. Part of the story about Winnie is that she got to stay in The Peg(Winnipeg City) by chance by having Yvonne. Somebody had to take care of those kids when Alex Sr. would take off and I would argue when John George took off too. JG's cousin Margaret/Mary had 1888 as her birth year and there is a Mary in Saskatchewan who a transcriber has down as 30-34yrs. old in 1906 census making her born like around 1874 or 1884 if it was 24 that was the correct age because we already know that census takers were sometimes faulty note takers who used translators. She could be taking care of those kids Agnes and Luella for somebody else.
The family member of the Shand's and for that matter the Mayo's said that the dates are off for their family for the Shand topic in the forum so if Winnie's is off by a couple of years then she could be born a little off from 1896(1894-1898). Figuratively speaking 14yrs. of age when she had Yvonne because Winnie's mom had Winnie around 1884. I think that my grandma is the one who took care of Yvonne until social services found out how confused the family tree was and took her into custody. My grandma hated to lose a child to the government after seeing what can happen in residential school. This is why I think that John George Kennedy born 1870 had a sister Margaret born like 1874/5 and she was Agnes's mom unless Alex Jr.'s daughter Mary had Agnes.

JG's sister apparently squandered her inheritance away-the one Alex Sr. left her so her brother John George tried to come up with a way to get that lot 4 in desperation which is how it sounded in that letter-he also tried saying as a secondary reason for the claim that he was entitled to it because he was a militia man in the 1885 North West Service. This is an interesting story but who's taking care of the kids?

Desperate to help the family who has lost their older generation to things such as disease, displacement and acculturation he fails insofar that Agnes depended on the Thomas woman as did so many in our family. Who knows were JG's head was at. Winnie wasn't ever supposed to stay in Winnipeg and I think she may have actually left after giving birth or tried to finish school while the Thomas woman my grandma a descendant of them tried their best to keep the family together. There is a mid wife in my grandma and that's why I was raised by her for much of my early childhood. Her mother Maggie Kennedy was a mid wife too.

[gnstill]

You are certainly providing a lot of excellent information. However, I’m getting dizzy trying to keep up with you (ha-ha). It’s going to take me a while to sort all this out and cross-reference it with all of my information.
I would like to credit you in my own researches, but I don’t know what name to use. Could you possibly provide me with more info about yourself? Like – your name, your parents’ names, birth dates, etc. It seems like we may be at this for some time to come and I feel like I should get to know you better.