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JOHN THOMAS (1751-1822)

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:38 pm
by gnstill
New Featured Family Page: JOHN THOMAS (1751-1822)

John THOMAS was born around 1751 in England. In 1769 he arrived at Moose Factory as an HBC employee. He remained there for about 44 years, raising a large family that included Red River descendants. In 1814 he retired to Vaudreuil, a suburb of Montreal, PQ.

Please post comments and queries about this family hereunder.

Re: THOMAS THOMAS (1751-1822)

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:05 am
by sherri
I have found your page on JOHN THOMAS SR (1751-1822) and MARGARET CREE (c1766-1813) very interesting and helpful as I have started my own research into this family.
I am a descendant of John Thomas Sr. through his son CHARLES (born 1793), his son THOMAS (born 1827), his daughter MARY, her daughter ANNIE (my great grandmother), her first born JAMES (my grandfather) and his first born DOROTHY (my mother).

Can you tell me more specifically the how your late wife is related to JOHN THOMAS Sr, so that I can keep this in mind when I am doing my search? Perhaps I will find something useful for you.

As you have mentioned, I have seen for myself that it is not an easy task reconstructing the past 250 years!

I have some questions:

(1): You say that "In the fall of 1784 twins, John Jr, and Margaret, were born at Moose Fort." In one source that I have found, John Jr. was born in 1782 and Margaret in 1784. Where did you get your information?
John Jr. died 3 June 1816 in Moose Fort, while in service with HBC and, therefore, presumably he is buried in the HBC cemetery in Moose Factory. It would be helpful to know what is says on his tombstone!

(2) Taken from your page:
John marries an Ojibway-Cree Indian named Margaret in 1779
In 1779, THOMAS was granted a wages were increased to 25₤ per year and he was appointed second to Edward JARVIS, chief at Moose Factory. However, he soon returned to Brunswick House. It was around this time that an Ojibway-Cree Indian named Margaret became his wife and life-long companion. John was about 28 years old then and Margaret was still in her teens. On Nov 22, 1780 their first child, Eleanor was born at Old Brunswick House.

JOHN was born 1751 and MARGARET appears to have been born in 1754 in Rupert's Land, and if correct, they would have been 28 and 25 respectively at the time of their marriage. If this D.O.B. for Margaret is incorrect, would you kindly tell me where you got your information?

Their first child, Eleanor who was born on Nov. 22, 1780 at Wapiscogamy House, according to HBC archives while JOHN was working at Moose, Wapiscogamy House (1778 - 1782), which was later renamed Brunswick House in 1781. (source Wikipedia - Missinaibi River).

Back to the question of the twins. It does seem strange that their first child was born 1780 and, if correct, the next birth was four years later in 1784. It seems more likely to me that John Jr. was, in fact, born in 1782, and Margaret in 1784. More investigation required here!

Daughters Elizabeth & Charlotte were bon in 1786 and 1788 respectively. OK.
It appears that Elizabeth remained at Moose Factory until her death in 1881.

Around 1791 daughter Mary was born at Moose (she died at the age of three). This is INCORRECT. She was 11 years old when she died. I have found the wording on her tombstone from a government commissioned report on Mixed European-Indian Community in the James Bay Area prepared in 2005:

Mary Thomas, born July 23rd, 1791
Lost among the ice together with an indian family
October 24th, 1802
From sudden death good lord deliver us.

In September of 1792, eight year old daughter Margaret was sent to England, where it appears she remained for the rest of her days. Where did you find this??
It does seem old to me that her father would not have accompanied her to England on one of his voyages back. According to HBC archives, he went back in 1789, 1800 (with son Charles on one of these voyages) and 1807, returning in 1808 with his son Charles. So you say that Margaret (born in 1784) was sent to England in 1792. The HBC archive is unclear on this point: Margaret (in London, returned home 1792, C.1/394, later back to England).
It appears that she went to London (possibily with her father in 1789) and then came back to Moose Factory in 1792 and later back to England, possibly in 1800 or 1807 with her father??
Margaret remained in England ... would be interesting to know more on her!

In 1793 and 1794 respectively son Charles and daughter Nancy were born.

Nancy??? - I have found nothing to indicate that there was a daughter named Nancy. Where did you find this?

Now we come to Charles (born 9 september 1793) and this is obviously my main interest. However, I will go through the rest of your very interesting page on John Thomas Sr.


Re: THOMAS THOMAS (1751-1822)

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:44 pm
by gnstill
Welcome to the Forum Sherri!

My late wife’s maiden name was Eldred THOMAS. Her father was Ventrice (born FIDLER) THOMAS (1893-1985) who got that name from his adoptive father, Thomas THOMAS (1845-1926). Genetically speaking therefore neither Eldred nor her father Ventrice were actual biological descendants of that particular THOMAS lineage. I do however have other relatives who were.

More details at this link: THOMAS THOMAS (1845-1926)

I will get back to you later regarding your other queries (vey busy these days).

Re: THOMAS THOMAS (1751-1822)

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:58 pm
by sherri
No Hurry!
I found a document today prepared August 26, 2010 that has answered my questions regarding the children of John Thomas. It contains a list of his children that he recorded in the Vital Statistics Register for Moose Factory.
I've tried to copy the list here, but no luck.
He lists only 9 children, excluding the 3 children that died (Mary, Edward and Jane).
There is no Nancy. It appears that Ann Thomas's middle name may have been Nancy.
Richard Edward was not a son of John Thomas, but appears to be the son of his daughter Eleanor and her first husband.
John Jr. and Margaret were not twins.

When I get a chance I will send you the list if you would like it.

Re: JOHN THOMAS (1751-1822)

Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:40 pm
by gnstill
Yes Sherri! I would like to see that list

Re: JOHN THOMAS (1751-1822)

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:18 pm
by alennox

I am joining the "support group" for those in search of Thomases. This John Thomas is purportedly a brother of the Thomas I have been searching for for many years, "Squire Thomas" born in 1752 or 1753. We know a lot about him after 1780, but nothing before then. We have one record written by William Johnson saying that he was an "American" and in the service of his family for 17 years (this was written in 1780). It is a recommendation in support of giving land to Squire Thomas. Squire is my third great-grandfather.

Interestingly, John Thomas ended up in Vaudreuil, a suburb of Montreal and is buried in our Thomas family plot at Mount Royal Cemetary. Squire Thomas died Dec 22, 1836, and was buried in the Dorchester Street Burial Ground, known as The English Old Burial Ground, in Lot 76. Squire Thomas did not attend John's funeral, as far as we know, which is odd if they were brothers. So, both Squire and John Thomas were in Montreal for many years at the same time.

Squire Thomas' wife, Elisabeth Fishback, was also buried at Mount Royal Cemetery.

So, my question is: is there any proof whatsoever that John Thomas and Squire Thomas were brothers? Was "Squire" Thomas his real name, or was this a nickname? All records that we have indicate that Squire Thomas was his "real" name, but we have no record of his birth, place of birth, or parents. Wondering if anyone can help me. Our Thomas Family Tree is a public tree on Many thanks in advance for any assistance that may be provided. My head is aching from the Thomas "brick wall"! Kind regards, Anne

Re: JOHN THOMAS (1751-1822)

Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 3:22 pm
by SLang1148
Who's on first? This year I think Isham was the hardest to research. In past years William Robert Smith's family drove me nuts but lots of other people provided clues. Isham's sort of fad into the woodwork. Thomas Thomas was difficult because Ancestry Search can't tell if you're searching for a first name or last name.
Merry Christmas Gary and thank you for all your hard honest work.

Re: JOHN THOMAS (1751-1822)

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:38 pm
by erinmillions
I am trying to figure out one of John's daughter's marriages, as outlined on JT's HBCA Bio sheet.

I am tracing the Alexander Christie family and their transatlantic family network.

Daughter Ann Thomas married Alexander Christie.

Her sister Eleanor, according to JT's HBCA bio sheet married (second marriage) Thomas Thomas. Which Thomas Thomas did she marry?

Re: JOHN THOMAS (1751-1822)

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:47 pm
by gnstill
Often described as Thomas THOMAS 2nd, this fellow is very difficult to identify definitively. The difficulties are described as ‘Who’s on First?’ ** Note: I have updated this narrative so that you can now view the actual Abott and Costello video previously barred (now viewable again).

Re: JOHN THOMAS (1751-1822)

Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:13 pm
by erinmillions
Thanks Gary!

Another question:

"Around 1812 daughter Ann had a relatively short union with Thomas HODGSON, son of a Cree woman & John HODGSON (1763-1826) from England. They parted in 1814 when HODGSON was discharged form HBC service. He left Moose to join his father at Lac des Chats on the Ottawa River. He later joined the NWC and remarried to a Saulteaux woman named Angelique."

What is your source for the Ann Thomas-Thomas Hodgson relationship? I've never seen this mentioned previously in any of my research on the Christie family (including primary sources). I would very much like to track this down if you have the reference available. I'm also interested if there were any children born of the union.